New here great device but...

General topics relating to Dataman that do not fit the above categories
tomanycars
Posts: 9
Joined: 07 Jun 2021 06:49

New here great device but...

Postby tomanycars » 07 Jun 2021 07:03

I bought my self a dataman the other day. Adding to my other programmers as it has massive coverage, which is brilliant.

Now what I want to know is who the flipping heck wrote the isp wiring diagrams , I wanted to wire into a MC68HC08AZ32A it doesn't specify if it can read the mask but what the hell I'll give it ago!

So I navigate to the wiring section for the front isp , and what an earth is that wiring diagram it made 0 sense , I was looking at it thinking eh? :shock: it asks to use a load of different bits not telling really where to connect them, and asks for an oscillator , the picture of the chip is awful , it doesn't specify pin locations and the isp pin locations are not really labeled correct, there is one pin called YES! Yes what? I mean really!
The other option was to by a qfp zif connector which are eye wateringly exspensive!

In the end I had to use another programmer to pin into the chip I wanted to look at!

Not impressed to say the least!

Dataman (Neil Parker)
Posts: 851
Joined: 10 Nov 2011 09:51

Re: New here great device but...

Postby Dataman (Neil Parker) » 07 Jun 2021 15:58

Hello tomanycars,

Thank you for posting on our users forum. I am glad to hear that you are impressed by the range of devices supported by the Dataman-48Pro2, we are continuously working hard to add new support.

As for our ISPmode support, the "ISP connection details" tab really does provide all the necessary information to connect the signals from the programmers ISP header to the target device.

We provide the following information in the device info section of our software for all ISPmode supported devices:

We guarantee the ISP functionality at conditions described by manufacturer of this device in datasheet(s) and application note(s). The "Recommended target circuit design" (next tab) gives example of such schematics.
It is expected, before using of the ISP mode, the user read datasheet of this device and also the user is familiar with the ISP mode of the programming at all.
For the user(s), who do not understand electro-technical terms like: reflection of signal(s) on the long cable, signal edge damage due to line capacitance, crosstalk, bypass capacitors, ground bounce ... we recommend to use off-board programming.


If you can provide some more details about your specific application including schematics of the PCB then I can try to help.

Best regards,


Neil Parker
Dataman Programmers

tomanycars
Posts: 9
Joined: 07 Jun 2021 06:49

Re: New here great device but...

Postby tomanycars » 07 Jun 2021 16:59

Dataman (Neil Parker) wrote:Hello tomanycars,

Thank you for posting on our users forum. I am glad to hear that you are impressed by the range of devices supported by the Dataman-48Pro2, we are continuously working hard to add new support.

As for our ISPmode support, the "ISP connection details" tab really does provide all the necessary information to connect the signals from the programmers ISP header to the target device.

We provide the following information in the device info section of our software for all ISPmode supported devices:

We guarantee the ISP functionality at conditions described by manufacturer of this device in datasheet(s) and application note(s). The "Recommended target circuit design" (next tab) gives example of such schematics.
It is expected, before using of the ISP mode, the user read datasheet of this device and also the user is familiar with the ISP mode of the programming at all.
For the user(s), who do not understand electro-technical terms like: reflection of signal(s) on the long cable, signal edge damage due to line capacitance, crosstalk, bypass capacitors, ground bounce ... we recommend to use off-board programming.


If you can provide some more details about your specific application including schematics of the PCB then I can try to help.

Best regards,


Neil Parker
Dataman Programmers


thanks for the reply , I have printed off the data sheet from the manufacturer , for the above chip as well as the wiring diagram from the Dataman......

ok I'm assuming all the data is all there I am sure it is , but its all gobbledygook ,

for instance there is the pin lay out for the ISP connector describing the pin data looks ok for the dataman
that makes sense , with some questionable pin names ,

then there is a diagram of the chip which i might add isn't to scale , so you have to download the manufactures pin assignments to decipher the pin data. the there is a small half square to the left of the target device , which again doesn't have any pin assignments so you you have to keep on looking around for them , its abit point less evening having that half squared there for the ISP

now it specifies resistor levels , capacitor levels ​, and additional circuits needed to read the target device,
and then there is a oscillator , but no mention of what it is , so i had to look at the manufactures level ok between 1-8mhz.? why not tell me the level.
then there is another half box to the right of the diagram of the target device with x2 resistors , is that a bread board line ?
so lets talk about the questionale pin names on the ISP
YES! and OK ? :?
i'm yet to find a pin on an mcu with that pin they maybe out there somewhere ;)
now back to the wiring diagram , there is a pin called COM that leads to no where? which doesn't even exist on the ISP connection :?


i understand this a professional piece of equipment , and the software is easy to navigate so why is the diagrams so hard to work out. i find it really odd all the time and effort to make it easy to navigate the software and amazing
coverage which i love its great! and its let down with the ISP diagrams.

i have finished the job that i needed to do with the current chip access with another device , but i am not going to give up i'm going to buy a blank chip and try this connection layout and bread board the connections.

this is mainly for automotive purposes , so the actions are the same no matter what device i use , i just wanted to use the Dataman... as i wanted to see what it can do.
Adam

tomanycars
Posts: 9
Joined: 07 Jun 2021 06:49

Re: New here great device but...

Postby tomanycars » 09 Jun 2021 07:44

Dataman (Neil Parker) wrote:Hello tomanycars,

Thank you for posting on our users forum. I am glad to hear that you are impressed by the range of devices supported by the Dataman-48Pro2, we are continuously working hard to add new support.

As for our ISPmode support, the "ISP connection details" tab really does provide all the necessary information to connect the signals from the programmers ISP header to the target device.

We provide the following information in the device info section of our software for all ISPmode supported devices:

We guarantee the ISP functionality at conditions described by manufacturer of this device in datasheet(s) and application note(s). The "Recommended target circuit design" (next tab) gives example of such schematics.
It is expected, before using of the ISP mode, the user read datasheet of this device and also the user is familiar with the ISP mode of the programming at all.
For the user(s), who do not understand electro-technical terms like: reflection of signal(s) on the long cable, signal edge damage due to line capacitance, crosstalk, bypass capacitors, ground bounce ... we recommend to use off-board programming.


If you can provide some more details about your specific application including schematics of the PCB then I can try to help.

Best regards,


Neil Parker
Dataman Programmers




Neil,

so i have had a look through the data sheet & the Dataman's wiring setup
i can see what is what now , but it took me a quite some time to read through the jargon then compare the manufacturer pin data, with the Dataman's diagram /pin data , then i compare it to the 3rd parties i had to ultimately use , which is clear & to the point. and doesn't mess about , yes it doesn't use all the pin requirements that the Dataman's ISP illustration pin assignments have set out but it manages to get where i want to be, i am still very very impressed with the Dataman device i have its fast and again the coverage is wow BIG , but the ISP is such a let down. when i discovered it can flywire in into a target device i was very happy. but the illustrations are just so poor. putting in extra words for no reason. , I'm sure you can apricate the frustration, but also the constructive criticism.

to add this is why i have multiple devices , so i can cover everything i do. i wish i can get one device that does everything but that's not going to happen. i'm still very impressed. like i said in my other post i have bought some test equipment to test the ISP connection out. and copy the connections that is covered and compare the results. and see if there any different. and changes the out come of of the connection access etc.

thanks

Dataman (Neil Parker)
Posts: 851
Joined: 10 Nov 2011 09:51

Re: New here great device but...

Postby Dataman (Neil Parker) » 09 Jun 2021 11:43

Hello Adam,

I am glad that you were able to make sense of the ISP connection details that we provide. I appreciate they are more schematic than actual board layout but this is the standard way of showing this type of information.

The YES! signal can be used to trigger the programming procedure again after connecting the ISP signals to a new device/board. The ERROR and OK signals you mention are not related to the target device but to the programmer status:
When LED OK or LED ERROR ON (shine), this status is presented as logical H, level of H is 1,8V - 5V depend on H level of desired ISP device.
When LED OK or LED ERROR OFF (not shine), this status is presented as logical L, level of L is 0V - 0,4V.


I will certainly be sharing your feedback with our engineers at our next management meeting.

If there is anything else that I can help you with, please do not hesitate to ask.

Best regards,


Neil parker
Dataman Programmers

tomanycars
Posts: 9
Joined: 07 Jun 2021 06:49

Re: New here great device but...

Postby tomanycars » 09 Jun 2021 20:48

Neil ,
Thanks for coming back to me , I think in the next meeting with the gods of dataman , you'll have to emphasis that the illustrations need to be jargon free.

If your able to navigate to the chip in question you'll see in the picture , the wiring illustrations there all over place with wires and illustrations wiring locations keys there all over place.

Now there is a large portion of the page which can be used for say, for a chip? For instance, that wire lines could come from there respective pins then they would lead over to the ISP. Connector , and if it requires a inline resistor. For voltage drop pull down or whatever. Put it in there. And only show the pins required. Not a heep of jargon.
Now if this was a 200 quid machine I'd be like well that's what I get. But this machine is over a a grand and I expect better , much better , if a 3rd party programmer can give good illustrations (which is almost the same price range) why can't dataman. ?
I was making my own rough drawing today. (:had another Job to get on with) To show how I think it should look like. I'll upload it to you once I'm done and you can let me know what you think.?
i thought it was best to actually bring it up and tell then not say anything at all, such as this jargon busting issues.

i mean how else will you know to improve ? ;) I'll stop moaning....for now :D

tomanycars
Posts: 9
Joined: 07 Jun 2021 06:49

Re: New here great device but...

Postby tomanycars » 10 Jun 2021 21:53

where does that go.jpg


so i have attached what i had to use to work out the pin locations for the target device , in question. as you can see i have made abit of a mess of the sheet but you can see where i am coming from. that who ever wrote the illustration kinda just gave up and just , .... thought that will do!

fortunility i managed to decipher the jargon as said in the previous message. hope this helps in your meeting you might have hopefully you can make sense of what i am trying to let you know about.

i have received my first test device which i will try on the Dataman and see what the results might be.... i will let you know how i get on and even send my test results if you want....? it wont be yet as i am due to go annual leave soon.

just to add this is a MC68HC08AZ32A

thanks

i await your feed back!

tomanycars
Posts: 9
Joined: 07 Jun 2021 06:49

Re: New here great device but...

Postby tomanycars » 14 Jun 2021 09:24

Neil if you was wondering why i circled END around DIV4(PTC3) and MOD4(PTC0), its to do with it being on the data sheet of the MCU at the end of the chip. next to the dot mark.
I just thought id clear that bit up before there was any extra confusion.

Dataman (Neil Parker)
Posts: 851
Joined: 10 Nov 2011 09:51

Re: New here great device but...

Postby Dataman (Neil Parker) » 17 Jun 2021 09:31

Adam,

Your page of notes were shown to our engineers but it was not entirely clear and quite hard to follow. Perhaps you could recreate the schematic and ISP connector in the same style that you would expect to see in our software.

We have an application note: In-Circuit programming of Motorola/Freescale microcontrollers, HC08 series.
URL: https://www.dataman.com/mwdownloads/dow ... nk/id/276/

which may help with some of the terms and pin names used for ISP.

We are confident that our implementation of this ISP support is OK and we have received no other complaints about the ISP connection details we provide from other customers.

If you can provide the complete schematics of your board so that we can see how the environment around the MC68HC08AZ32A is prepared for on-board programming, we can then offer further help or suggestions.

Best regards,


Neil Parker
Dataman Programmers

tomanycars
Posts: 9
Joined: 07 Jun 2021 06:49

Re: New here great device but...

Postby tomanycars » 23 Jun 2021 13:03

Dataman (Neil Parker) wrote:Adam,

Your page of notes were shown to our engineers but it was not entirely clear and quite hard to follow. Perhaps you could recreate the schematic and ISP connector in the same style that you would expect to see in our software.

We have an application note: In-Circuit programming of Motorola/Freescale microcontrollers, HC08 series.
URL: https://www.dataman.com/mwdownloads/dow ... nk/id/276/

which may help with some of the terms and pin names used for ISP.

We are confident that our implementation of this ISP support is OK and we have received no other complaints about the ISP connection details we provide from other customers.

If you can provide the complete schematics of your board so that we can see how the environment around the MC68HC08AZ32A is prepared for on-board programming, we can then offer further help or suggestions.

Best regards,


Neil Parker
Dataman Programmers


hi Neil, so i have made a very rough way i think it should look , I have the manufactories data sheet and the data sheet you handed over.
and kind of made one out of it.
I was trying to work out why there was a small circuit which has the following.
x1 22w resistor
x1 zener diode
x1 10v 10u capacitor
so I figured it was down to the discharge rate to allow access to the executive mode of the target chip , and bypass security access.?
it was a little confusing as the manufactures data sheet suggests that a max232 , will need to be used to me terminated at pin PAT0 & IRQ , with the various diodes
and also there is a suggestion to use a 4.9152mhz crystal apposed to the 9.8304mhz ? I'll continue through the data sheet maybe i have missed the reason for the difference in crystals.
i haven't tested it yet as i am still awaiting my test device which is from a vehicle. once it is here i will gladly test it out and then send over the results. fingers crossed it works.

Now when i read the 3rd parties access a different way and access via the PATO pin , and gains access via security bytes access , which the Dataman diagram & the manufacturer datasheet kinda suggests , i plan to look further into it when i have a free moment..

Now regarding that why none of your customers have not complained about it , i don't know maybe they figured well i have multiple devices so i will get to where i want to be with something else who knows. ?
the only reason I'm going down this path , i saw the Dataman i purchased has the capability of accessing this chip , i wanted to see what it can do but me being able to understand the diagram is key. i couldn't really wait around while i deciphered the diagram when i have a 3rd party device which shows me what i want to see. a connection diagram. etc
i know the one i made has errors as i am running of what i can see. but i think we can come to a good resolution from this. i would hope.
Attachments
Dataman wiring diag work in progress.jpg


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